Tomasz Poniklo, Bridges of trust and understanding

Interview with Mohammed Mahdi Shehu- national secretary of the Bridge Builders Association of Nigeria. Organization set up by local religious leaders and activists which aim is solving “on the ground level” problem of people living together but in different tribes – prepared by Tomasz Poniklo.

You are living in Kaduna, Nigeria. How can you – as a worker of “Bridge Builders Association of Nigeria” - use experiences brought out from your country in general idea of making dialog?

It comes out of this experiences I have got during this period when we set up Bridge Builders Association of Nigeria – it was made up with Christians bishops, Islamic clerics and activists as me. The essence of it is: no matter what was your background and experiences we can work together. Some of problems are not discriminate between Muslims and Christians. Disease, crime, feeling insecure is not discriminate – those things are common, those things are our common enemy. Hunger: it does not matter whether you are Christian or Muslim. Earthquake: it does not choose between Christians and Muslims. Putting forces together we can aim to solve those problems above politics and barriers, above capitalizing differences, and build ourselves on the base what is common. If you come to see any religious fight, let say in Kaduna, you will never see sons of governors, children of rich. All of them killing themselves are children of poor. That’s why we set up Bridge Builders Association. To bring people from different tribes, different religious together: talk with them, lecture them, involve to community of development. Now, you can see how Christians help in building a mosque and how Muslims helps in building of a church. Association needs to find money, than is no problem in working together. We want also to show: any sacral buildings, mosques as well as churches, are not legitimated targets in a war. Not only places, also people: life of every man whether Muslim or Christian should be protected.

We are all man. We have been created male and female, people of different nations, just to get know each other – say Muslims in a prayer for justice and peace. What should this knowledge result in?

If you go and know each other, like I am meeting Tomasz for the first time in my life, in fact you are the first Polish I ever stayed with, I ate with, ate the same food, we slept in the same hotel – you are the first one. Now, what matters most is your behavior would aloud me to tell the kind of Polish people I met. What I find in Polish is a good passion I saw. So Tomasz by my judgment is peace-loving, he is responsible, he is friendly, and he is kind of somebody who may live any place in the world. That’s the impression I have. If I have not traveled, if you have not traveled, you would not know about me, I would not know about you. Now - God teaches it clear that male and female were put into different tribes, into different missions, so of that you must to get to know each other. You are white-skinned. God created me black-skinned. But whatever color you have biologically, it is not only a barrier. You can talk and I will understand you, I can talk, you will understand me. What is in taste what you may not like: if you taste something what is sweet and if I put it into my mouth it is going to be the same sweet. If it is a bitter it will be a bitter. On all of that: we have so many things in common – either I am Nigerian, you are Polish, whether here are any one else. We all sleep, eat, go to a toilet. At times we are happy. At times we are down. Polish people die, Nigerian people die, everybody dies. Have you ever heard about somebody who was born not by a women? No. And it is all common for us despite color, miles away we live from each other. So the color does not matter, the language does not matter, in fact the mission you come with does not matter. What matters is are you going to treat me as a human being? Treat animal as an animal, treat insect as an insect. Do not treat me as an animal because I am not one. If I treat you most humanly possible it means if you are hungry I should help you with food, if you are sick and I come across you, it does not matter what color or religion you are – sick people need help. I should help you. That’s the essence of being human. Treat each other with all rights we are given just as a man.

Lets find now in tradition, history as well as in nowadays, person who may be in symbolic or very practical way, shared as a icon of man of faith with three monotheistic religions.

Abraham. Abraham is a father of all these three religions – father of Jews, of Christians, of Muslims. He is common for us. Example of his faith is uniting in three main religions in the world. Unfortunately nobody is willing to read the Bible which shows Abraham’s pride. Because we are selfish, we are greedy, we are ignorant. I read the Bible many, many times. I am scholar in the Bible, I am teaching about the Bible. I know about it much more than a lot of Christians do. And I came to know: if Christians were lived by teaches of ministry of Christ, if they were lived sincerely by import and export of the doctrinal teaches, in fact if just Christians hold their commandments, that would be fantastic. Than there would be no crime, no amenity, no war. Just the same like if Muslims were lived by the teaches of Qur’an. They need to know – Muslims and Christians: the sky is beginning of their journey, not the end. But we are posed apart because we do not even understand how religious call us. Maybe if Islam came from Poland you would be a Muslim. If Islam did not come thru Africa I would be a Christian. Most of us are Muslims by past, accidentally – it makes us ignorant. Most of Christians are Christians accidentally – so of that, ignorant. If we really had been good Muslims and good Christians the world would be a better place to live for all of us. Now, there is need for us: to clean and open our scriptions from dust, than allow them to penetrate into us. To let them be understood by us as the essence of humanity and worship.

What about presence: around who can we gather together?

It is an individual issue – issue of Tomasz, Mohammed, Henrietta, Zeihna, Buhari, Attahir, everybody. Trying not to be separate but to spread the message of peace, tranquility, dialog, community development and so on. Across religions, across tribes, across nations. We should be people of peace and dialog for everyone.

You are traveling a lot all around the world. Having a chance to compare situations of conflict and dialog in different parts of the glob: do you think problems in religious conflicts are based not in religion as itself but in a cultural background?

Yes, I agree that culture has got many infiltration influences on religions, especially this two we are talking about. Culture is very difficult in case we try to dispend on with. Even in strong religious teaches. I also agree that some of cultural practices that we hold today are antagonistic to religions, Islam and Christianity. But I also believe I can be encouraged by both: Islam and Christianity. It is important to know the point in which religious teaches stops and begins cultural habits.

What preventable measures should we focus on in the country like Poland to build bridge between Christians and Muslims just before the number of Muslims in this country will rise. How can we avoid a conflict and instead of it, make a dialog?

I think, what is important, we can mention in three things. Number one is: to realize that as well as Christians, there are people following other religions. People of every religions would want to have safety and guarantee to perform religion duties without harassment – especially if they are minority. Number two: it is better for majority to try to understand feelings of minority. Do not scare minority away. Bring them closer because more closer you bring them, more you will understand them, more they will respect you. But if you despise them, if you shot them just like for themselves and for a religion, you are creating situation where they are draw away from you, get formed their own group in which they will interpret you in a wrong way. And it would take hundreds of years to bring them back. The third one is: what ever you hear about people following religion – it may be as well Buddhism as Muslims – do not judge them by a behavior of followers. Just like you have bad Christians, you have bad Muslims, you have bad followers of any other religion. But also you have good people of all religions. The best we can judge them: get the book, in Islam Qur’an, and read it, if you want to understand Muslim. In Islam alcohol is forbidden in any form in any quantity. Fact you may see Muslim drinking does not mean in any way that Qur’an or other source of law let him to do it. But he chose to do it in spite of prohibition. Do not judge him as drunkard and than Muslims as a drunkards. He is a Muslim who chose to misbehave and put away words from the God. When there is a Muslim fighting, do not judge Islam by his action. Judge him as a fighter. What he says about his action as a religious motivated is not right. And when Muslim tells lies, check in the Qur’an: there is no bless for him while telling lies. He just takes a hazard by himself. Find Muslims who make peace with everybody. If you do this, you will find Muslims respecting the Qur’an because respecting it not misunderstanding. And always try to involve them in your community activities. Muslim are supposed to be participating in community activities. Do with them social services. Write them an official letter, for example: Catholics of Krakow are inviting Muslims of Krakow to an environmental work on cleaning the railway station on Monday the 7th of January 2007. We expect about hundred people from our congregation. The cost of feeding people during the occasion is put at 10.000 PLN. Please contribute to our budget. They will do it. They will participate. All minorities have to contribute to what is made in a society. Muslim has got great responsibility. Even if he were only Muslim in Krakow. He is not expected to lock his room and send away everybody. He is expected to go to Tomasz, to go to Anita, to go to Andrew, and to socialize practicing his own religion.

What would you show as an example of building bridges for Europe?

I have got great example from today’s morning. When we went to mosque together with you, just before the mosque we saw a building of Methodic Church. Our guide surprisingly told me that Muslims go to this Methodic Church, registries and pay money to have their children there at evenings Islamic lessons. Inside a church Muslim children have lessons five days a week. And it is great: they see there is no barrier between us which can put us apart, we do not have to avoid each other, we can meet at yours as well as on ours place. There is a thing with every minority you have to remember. If you treat them badly when they are small, at time they will grow up they become enemy force. And you will never be friends. But if you accommodate them, even as a very small children, they will always remember that. Always help in bringing minority closer. In Poland you are in majority, Tomasz. But one day you will be in minority. Coming to Nigeria you will be in a minority. If somebody treat you badly, you would not like it. If as minority you are treated good, you would feel safe, you would feel composed. Being guest of good Muslim you may be sure about your safety, cause he would give his life to protect you.

What about Muslims-Christians and Muslims-Jews dialog? Is there any difference from your point of view?

The dialog takes the same pattern. Dialog means: tell me your feelings. Dialog is not compassion. Dialog is not about trying to convince you. Dialog is not about trying to bring you to us. No. Dialog is all about trying to understand. Tomasz is a human being. Anita is a human being. What do they do if they do not like me? Than it is enough when they see me once a day because of necessity. Other times they will simply let me to go. If Tomasz wants me to listen his voice while he is talking – just talk. If he does not want me to call him Tom-asz – I will ask him: how should I pronounce your name? When you tell me, I will try to learn. Because there are small, small things that can hurt somebody very, very badly. Sometimes you do not even get that in some words or act you have really hurt someone. So dialog is about understanding you and understanding me, about understanding what you like, what I do not like. Lets imagine situation: you want me to go to park with you. You call me: Mohammed, Tomasz speaking. Can we go to the park tomorrow? I will answer: why not?! But if you know I do not like going to the park because of crowds and you call me: Mohammed, can we go to the park on Sunday? You will probably hear: hmm, Tomasz, sorry, I am busy. I just will not respond. Because you did not even make any effort to find in simple things what I like and what I do not. If you would have done it, whole thing were more clear and easier for us and living in this world much better. Leaving this time my home in Nigeria: I have few friends, most of them are catholic bishops or Arabs. I got family. But going out I left my new, expensive car in bishop house. Why? Because I trust him. And I do not mind if he take the car to go around. It is not a big deal. In this story: life is not about car, it is about trust. I can be sure of him not only in case of car – I know that if anything happened in Kaduna, I can pick up all my family and take to his house. Because I trust him. Thing works in two ways: when he is in my house, he is always protected.

back